It’s disconcerting when you realise you’ve slipped into the ‘wrong’ generation. It’s little things. I can’t text one-handed. Truthfully I can’t text at all, because I don’t like mobile phones so I haven’t got the necessary practice in. Twitter completely horrifies me. I still can’t really use my Ipod properly, and I’m faintly scared of it. And I remember rather vividly standing in the toilets at the 02 arena, being unable to work out how the hand-washing facilities worked. I was at a concert, so I was slightly drunk which probably didn’t help. But there were no taps to speak of, just a sci-fi looking tube which presumably dispensed water once the appropriate actions were taken. When nobody was looking, I tried doing the Jedi Mind Trick in the basin on the assumption it might be motion-sensitive. But no. And there’s only so long you can stand around in a public toilet, acting like you’re in a Point and Click adventure game before people think you’re up to something dodgy. Which is worse? Having a bunch of strangers think you can’t work a tap or that you’re an unhygienic bastard? It later turned out there were hidden foot pedals. Like wtf? Very sensible but wtf? But, yes, that was the moment when I realised I was officially an old fart.
I mention this because I wonder how much this affects my attitude, and perhaps that of my generation, to the internet, specifically our perceptions of the real and the virtual. A few weeks back my guild had a silly evening of drunken karaoke in which I briefly participated before collapsing in a drunken stupor. I woke up the next morning and I thought I was fine, but discovered I wasn’t when I left the house later that day to meet some friends and was immediately afflicted by ARGH!LIGHT and ARGH!NOISE. I guess I wasn’t looking too bright by the time I limped up, late and wincing, and explained to my friends that I’d got drunk with some people in WoW. It soon became apparent that everyone thought this was the saddest thing I’ve ever done. And, actually, I believe there’s no competition. It was fun, I was in good company, and I have done way, way sadder things over the course of my life.
But I do remember somebody saying, half-jokingly: “So, Tam, actually, you were drinking alone, in your room, all last night?” This lead to a long conversation in which I found myself defending the validity of non-real world connections. The thing is, I think most people who are around my age remember a time before the internet was everywhere with the consequence that, in our heads, there’s a definite, and possibly misplaced distinction, between the ‘real’ face-to-face world and virtual spaces, with the latter not mattering as much somehow.
As we grow more comfortable within, and dependent on, virtual spaces I do wonder if this distinction will fade in time. And I do I wonder if people who grew up surrounded by, God, all the networking, connecting and heaven knows what else tools of the internet have already discarded it. Given how far-flung my friends are these days, I have many relationships I maintain through a mixture of IM, email and skype, and nobody seems to believe that these relationships no longer count, or are less than they once were because the primary methods of communication are different.
But then I also find myself wondering: in the rush to affirm the importance and, hell, the reality of virtual spaces, do we gloss over or fail to account for their differences. Y’know, if that had a cutsy pun in it, it would have sounded almost like a soundbite from Carrie Bradshaw, and then I’d have had to kill myself. I’m thinking all this stuff because I’m pondering about guilds. There’s been quite a lot of guild drauma (that’s trauma + drama for all those not paying attention at the back) going on in the blogsphere recently, possibly it’s just the way we entertain ourselves in the pre-patch lull, and I had a moment of private angst myself which left me struggling for an appropriate way to express and explore it (this is about the 89th draft of this post).
The question I ask myself is what is being in a guild like. And by “like” I mean, what is being in guild analogous to? (that sentence is going to bug me forever, look at that preposition, it’s just hanging there like a dead fish … gah! But ‘to what is being in a guild analogous’ just sounds unwieldy). Here are a couple of quotes that jumped at me from the blogsphere over the past couple of days:
We’re all grouped up at our computers to participate in something bigger than ourselves. And it’s actually a pretty selfish, mercenary desire that brings us back – loot, glory or character achievement.
(Cass)
While many find even these offensive, I’ve personally decided that I’m nwilling to tolerate a certain amount of the locker room humor endemic to raiding guilds these days. There certainly is a wide range of maliciousness vs simple camraderie that some of these comments can imply.
(Hine)
I think these suggest something we all quite strongly believe: although there is an element of the social in most guilds, to a greater or lesser extent, for the most part we view them as functional groupings rather than personal ones. They might as well be a group we meet at our weekly judo class or at a choir or any other thing that brings people together primarily because of one shared interest. But this is where I think virtual spaces differ from real ones: although the implicit attitudes to those around us are the same (it would be nice if I found some kindred souls but equally what we do here, be it learning self-defence, making music or downing a raid boss, is more mportant that our individual preferences, temperaments and values) the space itself works completely differently.
A guild revolves around its chat channels: the guild channel, Vent, and the raid channel, if a raid is in progress. This isn’t the same as he discrete groups that tend to form if a large and wide-ranging group of people find themselves standing around before an event, or a class, or at a really unfortunate party or whatever. In the real world, we’re conditioned and trained to focus and ignore. We can stand in a group of people and tune out pretty much anybody we choose, concentrating instead on those we like.
A chat channel is completely open. Everybody ‘hears’ everyone else. If there’s one abject wanker at your choir, it’s remarkably easy to pretend he doesn’t exist outside those moments when you’re thinking “well, he is a pretty decent baritone really.” But in guild, everyone is inescapable. And guild chat doesn’t work like conversation. It isn’t even a rather large and boisterous conversation. More than anything, it reminds me of a vast and empty hall, inside which we find the blind, wandering through endless spaces, occasionally calling out to each other across the distance.
It’s my girlfriend and I’s anniversary tomorrow, calls somebody into the silence.
(By the way, it is very important to talk about your girlfriend in guild chat, so everybody knows you’re not a sad nerd like the rest of them – this is especially important if you don’t have a girlfriend).
For my girlfriend’s anniversary, I did [insert cool thing] and she was so pleased with me she [insert sex act] for [insert implausible length of time], calls somebody else.
(In guild chat, if somebody says something you must use this as as opportunity to say something about yourself that makes you look better than them, while simultaneously establishing your distance from the rest of the sad nerds around you who probably don’t have a girlfriend)
There’s no particular connection to it, just people far apart stuffing their heart into the firing tube of language, and lofting it into the void. (that’s an adaption of a Sam Lipsyte quote, I cannot take credit for it, unfortunately).
It’s weirdly depressing some times, and, for me at least, it makes coping with the wanker with the excellent baritone hard work indeed. And I think this is where the uneasy social/functional borderline comes into play. Like Hine, I think most of us brace ourselves for certain types of humour, values that do not necessarily reflect our own, a succession of low-key ‘isms’ we might not tolerate in face-to-face communication. It disconcerts me, truthfully, the number of things I “decide” not to let bother me for the sake of group functionality. I think it’s largely to do with me – I’ve always been a ‘does not play well with other’s’ type of person, and in my day-to-day to life I cushion myself with people whose fundamental values, to some extent, accord with my own. I have little patience for those I cannot respect – judgemental, yes, but I suspect the sort of people I don’t respect have little patience for me as well!
But where do you draw the line? At what point do you say: actually, no, I know this group is about coming together and achieving a thing, but this is too much for me, I could not, and would not, countenance this in my real life, why should I in a virtual space?
Let me tell you about … well … let’s call him Humbert.
A few night’s ago, Humbert lofted his voice into the void: “Guys, do you think it’s bad that I’m sleeping with my brother’s girlfriend’s little sister, ‘cos she’s not 16 yet and her folks are giving me evils about it.”
I guess I’d better say right off the bat here, that I’m pretty sure Humbert wasn’t causing this girl any “real” harm. I’m not going to get on my high horse about his actions because, hell, not my place and let’s face it: he was most likely talking chemically pure, weapons-grade bullshit anyway. But it annoyed the crap out of me because, well, boasting about who you’re banging, especially in guild chat, is so far from couth that uncouth doesn’t even begin to cover it. And secondly if you are going to boast about who you’re banging have the brass bollocks to do it openly. Say “hey guys, I’m the kind of prick who gets off on telling other people he’s fucking somebody below the legal age of consent. Aren’t I a winner?” Don’t give it this toxic coating of faux-morality.
That’s the thing about guild chat. It’s a wide open space. You say things that you think will make you look good to other people, who will respond by saying things they think will make them look good to you. Everybody plays their own tale told by an idiot to an audience of nobody.
He didn’t tell us about his not-yet-sixteen-bangee because he expected us to say “yes, you fuckwit, anything you could go to prison for doing can be generally accounted bad” he said it because he wanted something along the lines of “Way-hey, man!” or perhaps “Yes, you are bad, you dirty dog you” with an undertone of “wow, this guy must be awesome, I wish I was as awesome as him.” This is, to an extent, what he got.
And because I’m an idiot, and I can’t keep my mouth shut, I couldn’t quite stop myself from pointing out that sleeping with someone below the age of consent, if you yourself are over it, would be considered statuary rape. Humbert responded by claiming it was okay because she was horny for it, and since the age of consent is different in different countries it didn’t mean anything anyway.
Obviously this is a blog about WoW not a blog about My Opinions On Complex Moral Issues, so I’m not going to get into the ethics of it – but the fact remains that, as far as I’m concerned, the age of consent is important precisely because it IS entirely arbitrary. It doesn’t matter if it’s 8 or 12 or 27, it’s a line in the sand that has to be there to protect people, both the Humberts and the Lolitas of this world. If you try to look at it from a personal or a moral perspective, the issue is absurd and insoluable – why does one day make a difference between somebody being able to give informed consent and not? Surely individuals are better placed to make that decision anyway. And let’s say you have two fifteen year olds who are dating and sleeping together, if one of them turns sixteen before the other, suddenly you have a few-month span in which one is them is suddenly a rapist. Etc. etc. etc. On it goes, impossibly.
You can make a case for every individual exception (hell, I had sex for the first time considerably before the age of consent and I think what I thought at the time was “go me”) but, again, that’s not the point – the issue has essentially been removed from a moral sphere and into a much less complex legal one. That’s what the age of consent does. I mean, it’s probably relatively safe to conclude that in most cases it is probably okay but I think it’s probably also important to remember that for everyone having fully informed, safe and consensual sex, there’s somebody being exploited and abused.
And regardless of whether Humbert interactions were entirely harmless (which I do believe – and, for that matter, I have to believe otherwise it’s just too horible and this blog post could be entitled My Guildie The Rapist, and God knows what I’d think and do) you still nevertheless have to accept that sleeping with people below the age of consent is Not A Good Idea and can, in fact, cause terrible harm in some circumstances. Otherwise we wouldn’t have an age of consent and we’d all be living in a happy, jolly Paedophilia Free For All. I now all teenagers want to have sex, for social reasons and for, well, sexual reasons too, but not taking advantage of children is what akes you an adult. And ultimately I think “she was totally up for it man” does not necessarily constitute informed consent.
Again, I know there are “circumstances” – somebody could be fifteen and three quarters and their partner sixteen and one quarter, but ultimately as far as I’m concerned when you’re 21 sleeping with somebody who cannot give informed consent and then boasting about it is somewhere between skeevy and downright unforgivable.
Before things had a chance to get nasty, people went off to fight Ony – but I can’t quite cope with the fact that I’m associated with someone who not only is a statuary rapist, but believes that there are no circumstances in which it would possibly be a problem to be a statuary rapist and moreover believes I am the sort of person who would be impressed by his (likely spurious) tales of statuary rape. In short: I feel sordid and depressed. And also like a moralistic prick for a) judging and b) caring. I’m already the one who deprives guildies of loot in favour of fairness to even worthless PUGs, but now I’m the head of the anti-sex league as well.
Which, again, brings me back to my original musings. We are here to play WoW, not debate sexuality morality, and guilds cannot be xpected to police the ethical standards of its members – that would be a slippery slope of doom and incredibly hypocritical. Except I’m very aware that had I met someone in my non-Azerothian life, who spoke and behaved as Humbert does, I would have absolutely nothing more to do with him, regardless of cost or consequences. But then again it would be easier. I could literally and figuratively turn my back on him and just listen to the baritone. And equally it very much strikes me that going on about your illegal sexual conquests is the sort of thing you’d only say on the Internet, maybe because you have a very low opinion of the “non-real” people around you. It’s not like folks kick back in the pub and discuss their latest acts of sexual abuse over a pint of Guinness. Well, my friends and I don’t anyway, I don’t know if we’re missing out.
I feel like I’m travelling round in circles, and I know the easy answer is “get over it, Tam, stop being a moralistic prick.” (I don’t get me wrong, I’ve done plenty of bad things myself, but thankfully sexual abuse isn’t one of them). Of course maybe it just comes back to “does not play well with others.”
And, hell, Icecrown is out today – I should just get stuck into that, instead, right?
This, I think, is one of the best topics for discussing in regards to playing wow.
I’ve touched on it myself a couple of times (although lets be fair, there are 3 great topics here: 1) Im old arent the world filled with new stuff, 2) What is a guild, what makes a guild? and 3) why do i play with these idiots)
I’ve had a long standing fight with anyone who uses the term “gay” in the “this is terrible” sense of the word. that is way to common in WoW.
Some days I will let it ’slide’ because… well Im not perfect. Other days ill spend hours fighting in /g or /ra or /w or /2 with every single moronic little kid who thinks that he is interweb cool.
Im not going into the debate here, but it reminds me a lot about your guildie Humbert. Funny enough my first thought was “how forking sick are you to even date your brothers gf’s baby sister” and then “how old is he”…
And to those idiots who would even think to say: get over it tam ect ect. Im reminded of “when first they came” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...) And YES, i do think it is okay to equate the two subjects. If you do not stand up when wrongs are committed (even in games) why would you expect anyone to look out for you?
There are ways of handling it, because, like you said yourself tam, this isn’t him being an arse (well not only) it is him trying to get props and be cool. So “dud, not cool, thats gross” is a non-confrontal way of dealing with it -and still letting said person know how you feel. I know that “WTF are you a gay bashing idiot???” doesn’t really get anyone anywhere when somebody says that ‘what gay drops we had’.
/endrant
Thankfully I can happily report nobody uses gay as pejorative, at least not in front of me, in guild chat – but I know what you mean, it drives me mad as well. Back on ED I was constantly fighting the same fight but it is fucking tiring to be constantly whinging when somebody says something you interpret as sexist, racist, homophobic or just plain offensive, especially because actually I can’t truly put my hand on my heart and say I am definitely not sexist/racist/homophobic/offensive. He who casts the first stone and all that – although I’d like a stone, or maybe a bloody big rock, that I could throw. Also the “I was only joking, god, can’t you take a joke” defence is unbeatable – because it automatically designates as the dude who is against fun.
And I know, I know – what kind of loser is interested in sleeping with teenagers, bloody hell. I can’t imagine anything duller. No offence to teenagers. To be honest I even find university students a bit un-tempting these days (although that’s probably a good thing). I think your responses pretty much mirrored mine.
I should probably have gone down the “eeeeeeew, you sad bastard route” rather than the “err, hello, statutory rape route” as a way of dealing with it – but I think at the time I was too busy reeling that he’d just thrown this out into the middle of guild chat in an effort to make us think he was cool.
The tragic fact of the matter is that we’re playing a computer game. 95% of what people say is utter bullshit and either designed to make you like them or designed to make them look their estimation of “AEWSUM!!1″. Put up with it if you like, but raiding with douchebags that make you sad is, when it comes down to it, spending your leisure time being sad. Masochistic much? Might as well just mail me all your gold. Please. I’m level 3 and I NEED it.
Ignore, complain to an officer, cut em loose, or find a place that doesn’t tolerate idiots douching out. There really are such places!
Actually if you want to add yet another layer of tragic irony to the whole business, you can add the fact that I spent several days feeling crappy and wondering if it was appropriate to blog about this – when there’s a dude in my guild boning a 15 year old.
I’m very aware that the only reason to say something in guild chat unless you’re talking about something *quite specific* like raiding in Patch 3.3, or where to fish, or does anybody know any jewel crafters, is to make yourself look good and try to make people like you – most of the actual “social” conversations I have, I have in whisper or in party chat or something.
And actually it was “douchebag” not “douchebags.” I think maybe the reason it hit me so hard was because, well, I really like my guild.
Err… that sort of came out like ‘STFU nub’ – not what I meant. Just meant that raiding =/= putting up with unfortunates.
Hahah, don’t worry about it – people tell me to stfu noob all the time, I’m perfectly used to it
(Actually it didn’t at all).
This is a really interesting post Tam – a lot in it to mull over. Do you think that Humbert would have asked the same question if you’d all been chatting face-to-face or did the virtualness of the situation play a part? I know I try and take my real self into the game and into guild, but I think (or perhaps that should be I hope) that some of the people I’ve come across would be a lot nicer in real life than they are online.
Excellent point about how relationships that started traditionally (even if they’re now virtual) are still more acceptable to most than relationships that began and remain in the virtual space.
In other news, your reveal about the O2 loos came too late! I was there on Monday to see Eddie Izzard and had to be shown the sneaky trick by a rather incredulous younger person. Oh the shame of the late 20’s…
Interesting and depressing :/
I’m genuinely not sure – maybe Humbert is that much of an arse he would just announce that kind thing in of casual conversation anyway. But to be more charitable about it, I do suspect the virtual setting makes a difference – after all, the people you encounter on-line are not “real” people, so you can say anything really, right? And guildchat working the way it does, I think it’s very easy to just blurt out any old crap in an effort to connect to people (I think I was probably being unfair when I said people just say things to make themselves look good). Also you lack for visual cues – my look of rampant disgust, for example
I think we all mediate ourselves to some extent through the internet – and who knows who our real selves are anyway.
You have no idea how relieved I am to hear the toilets were as disconcerting to you as they were to me – I felt like *such a fool*. Also I hope Izzard was wonderful
Wow, you weren’t kidding marking this post “Srs bizness”.
It definitely is a thorny issue when a guildmate or raidmate makes a comment like the one you describe. While I have never encountered this specific situation, I have encountered people behaving over chat in a way that I considered uncomfortable and/or outrageous. Luckily, I don’t think any of those people have been guildmates, and my general rule of thumb is to behave much as I would in real life when confronted with such a situation. If it’s appropriate to say something I do, but at the very least I remove them from my roster of people I talk to or deal with in-game. It’s a bit more difficult when they’re not talking specifically to you but spouting into the void. If this kind of talk continues, though, I would think you would be perfectly justified in bringing it up with the Guild Leader. And if the guild leader and the guild as a whole condones “Hey, I keep sleeping with 15-year-olds!” as appropriate guild chat, then it may be time to move on from that guild. If you really don’t want to do that your options are (a) ask Humbert (in chat or whispers) not to be such an ass in the guild chat or (b) put him on ignore or (c) do nothing.
I can promise you, based on my own experiences, that there are guilds where such chat would not occur in a million years. Almost all the members of my guild are married or mature enough not to discuss their singleton sexual conquests in chat. Our chats are friendly, nerdy, and oftentimes video-game related. So such a place does exist, since I can’t believe our guild is the only one like that out there.
Whatever you choose to do or not to do, be assured that feeling conflicted about it makes sense and many people in your situation would. (I certainly would.)
Oh, and I would have waved my hands under the faucets for five minutes, too, before I found the pedal hidden below. So I guess I’m an old fart as well.
Alas, yes, serious Tam is serious
And, you’re right, it is a horribly complicated situation. I’m pretty inured to the terrible things people say in WoW, especially in random PUGs, or in trade, (yikes, why am I even on that channel?) but you can comfortably just ignore them or, you know, go somewhere else. But in guild chat – which should nominally be moderately safe from too much arrant dickheadism – where you can’t really easily get away – it’s genuinely a bit startling.
I do think making it a “guild issue” is a slippery slope of doom though – I mean, as I think I said in the post, you can’t, and shouldn’t expect, for guilds to morally police their members. I mean, sleeping with 15 year olds is illegal, so is downloading music or smoking weed, or drinking under the age of 21 is some companies. Are you going to police that? Of course not.
But, yes, you’re right – “I’m banging a 15 year old, go me” is not appropriate in guild chat (I hope, at least) – but then you get into this weird don’t ask – don’t tell space. Truthfully I’d rather not associate *at all* with someone I know is sleep with someone under the age of consent, but the best I can hope for is “just don’t tell me about it” – which feels wrong as well.
Out of my available options, they all seem pretty inadequate. I can’t “do nothing” even though it’s easiest, I don’t want to address it directly with him because there’s no way either of us can come out of that well, and ignoring him … well … that I will do but … it feels like the best of a bad bunch of options.
Don’t get me wrong, guild chat is often genuinely entertaining and “normal” – in fact the last person lowering the tone was yours truly, dispensing his theories why only belves ever seem to cyber. There’s a bit of zomg!i haz sex from the lower end of the age spectrum but I guess that’s to be expected. I think it’s just because I’m old and grumpy – it’s not that I object to conversation with sexual content, or people talking about their partner in a respectful way, but it’s the kind of “lol tits” equivalent that makes me feel a world away from 20. I’m pretty sure I used to do it myself but I’d like to think there comes a point when you’ve accepted that, yes, sex is great and we’re all having it. Now get over it.
I feel weirdly reassured by how many other people have had trouble with bathroom facilities – I’ve been nursing that dark secret for a year now!
You’re right, of course. All of the options available are crap. Going back in time and changing Humbert’s actions (and by that, I mean his decision to sleep with an underage girl, if he did, in fact, even do such a thing) are feats for superheroes, so you’re left with a handful of choices that each feel less than concrete. I think, in the end, based solely on your description of the incident and lacking knowledge of your guild’s normal interactions, etc, if I were faced with this dilemma, I would tell Humbert that I think it’s wrong to sleep with an underage girl, and then I would take my friends and my mace of healing lollipop-goodness and find a new guild.
But I think perhaps the best advice any of us can offer is to talk to M’Pocket Tank (by which I mean YOUR pocket tank) and any close guild friends and ask their advice and reactions. It may change your perception of the whole situation or cement your earlier impressions. At best, it may give you an answer of what you should do. Good luck!
http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm
Nope, you’re not exagerating. This type of guild chat, or vent chat around me…I would walk out and not come back.
Even if it were consentual, and nothing to do with the legal age, and all that…this is not the way I would want to hear anybody talk about women.
Re-affirming the whole bragging about how much you love your girlfriend..different story, that’s your ego, plus..who’s getting hurt. I can only imagine that the girlfriend will be half proud to hear the boyfriend brag about having her as a girlfriend.
But talking about whatever type of sex you had with anybody , while that person has most likely not told you to go ahead and shout it out to the world…bad. Really, really bad. Sex is a thing between two people, not between the bragger and his entire raid.
Oh God, rape statistics are enough to make you lose the will to live.
The thing is, it wasn’t “guild chat” as such, it was one guy shooting his mouth off in a stupid/offensive/objectionable manner and you can’t hold an entire guild responsible for the behaviour of one of its members. That’s the thing, guilds draw people who play WoW, and that’s their function – so I feel bad for being so extremely freaked out by it.
But, yes, entirely agreed – there are plenty of couples in the guild and it’s genuinely lovely to hear them talk about how amazing/wonderful/special they think the other person is, or even what it is they’re doing in their lives. But bragging about your sexploits? God, no, that’s skeevy. I know it springs from insecurity … but it’s just so disrespectful to the person you’re sleeping with.
Look when I see people confess to complete STUPID stuff in gchat that I think they should be ashamed of, but are always looking for +respect +influence +status or whatever it’s nearly impossible to lecture them on how wrong you think they are.
Therefore it is up to the brainy ones (like you Tam!) to come up with an appropriate set down.
“How did her parents find out? I hope they DO call the cops on you”
But the great thing about text based chat is that people aren’t afraid to say what they think. I’m constantly amazed at how some players treat me: as if I’m one of the boys. I bid and won an item from a Mage in my guild tonight and when he lost he said “Gratz. Bitch.” If they met me in RL he would never, ever dare speak to me like that.
I guess I figure people are less likely to moderate their behavior towards me in game. Isn’t that more real?
““Gratz. Bitch.” If they met me in RL he would never, ever dare speak to me like that.”
I would only ever say that to someone in real life. Because subtle humor does not ever never work in videogame texting.
It kind of works the other way for me – I’m more careful than ever in text-based communication because there’s no nuance, no subtlety and no context. You can get away with saying snippy things and dodgy things in real life because the person to whom you are speaking probably knows you, and can see you smiling, or can hear the self-irony in your voice. Also something in me pulls against the anonymity of it – I’m always trying to be moderate, whereas in real life I’m far from it. It feels cowardly to lay into some through text.
I have no idea where the real and the virtual intersect – if someone treats you differently when they’re drunk, is that the ‘real’ them? What can I say, I’m a big fan of inhibitions, I think they’re there for a reason
But you are, as ever, devestatingly sensible. Maybe I should work on my put-downs for the next time…
Tam, I am also in the ranks of the mid/late 20s suddenly finding themselves baffled by curious public restroom devices. In my case it was some sort of hot air spewing hand dryer device at the Chicago Field Museum, but yes. Eventually I wiped my hands on my pant-legs and shuffled out feeling guilty because I was holding up the eighty yard line behind me and everyone was staring.
Oh god, I’m turning into the person who insists she’s 26 and 5/4 to avoid being lumped into “late 20s”.
Also, ironically, I’m reading up on statutory rape as part of my studying for a criminal law exam I am taking first thing tomorrow morning. I’d say you have the reasoning just about right: the legal line in the sand is an elaborate fiction, but is drawn because drawing a moral line is near to impossible, yet a line has to be drawn somewhere to prevent all sorts of truly Bad Things from happening. And I also think you’re right that at some point, respecting the line becomes almost a criteria of being a functional adult.
As for ‘why do I play with these cretins?’ I’ve been having that problem myself. When my guild mutinied and reformed, we very nearly wound up in a guild called Too High to Die or something similar, because for some reason, my otherwise incredibly pleasant and reasonable guildmates think the height of enjoyment is setting exotic herbs on fire and sniffing them. Maybe it’s the social inept in me (I too don’t play that well with others either, ask me about the “other kids” at law school) or maybe it’s the old person in me (26 5/4) but I’m not comfortable when the conversation veers into the territory of downright illegal and hovers there for a while with everyone trying to outdo everyone else’s stories of hazy stupidity. It’s another case similar to your statutory rape example, they’ll argue about the relative non-danger of pot-smoking, and that might be true, but there’s still that symbolic line of ‘You Could Go To Jail For That’, and it’s hopping that line that makes the whole thing ego-boosting. It’s enough motivation for me simply not to do it. In my opinion, it makes them look ridiculous, not cool. But what do I know, I’m old and can’t Twitter? Going to jail just seems like a big price to pay for a little incoherent fun. Especially when I could get incoherent having a drunken karaoke night with my guild! (FUN!)
Anyway, you raise so many points that I wish I could address, but what I’ve already said is disjointed with lack of sleep and overstudy, and I haven’t got the time to respond with a post of my own. Suffice it to say, you’ve made me think hard. As usual. Apologies for rambling wall of text style comment.
Oh dear. That is much wall-of-textier than I thought it was.
But it was an excellent wall of text!
I, too, am 26 and 4/5s!!! I actually have only the haziest recollection of my year of birth – if I’m feeling optimistic I claim to be 25 and if I’m feeling pessimistic I’m 27, but the other day I phoned my mother to establish the true definitively! I guess 26 is the dreaded age when toilet technology leaves you flailing in the dust. Sigh!
I have a friend who has just finished his training as a criminal lawyer – his dissertation was all about rape (woot) and it’s actually as depressing as hell. Not that I’m surprised, or anything, but I guess it’s something we’ve been talking about, and thinking about, and getting really really miserable about for a while now. So possibly Humbert just lofted is voice into the void at a real bad time but, ye gods…
I think maybe 26 and 4/5s is some profound attitude-changing age (public restroom ineptitude aside). When I was between 16 and 18 I, too, was very much into setting herbs on fire and inhaling them – and talking about it, and talking about it, and talking about it. i think I probably talked about sex a lot more then than I do now as well – obviously high on weed and the heady knowledge that other people wanted to sleep with me. God, I was a wanker =P
But I suppose perhaps when you’re younger being able to do things generally characterised as socially naughty is extremely thrilling. Unfortunately setting herbs on fire and ingesting them is something that only affects the individual, whereas sleeping with people under the age of 16 sadly impacts upon someone else.
Good luck with the studying, and thank you kindly for taking the time to write out at least some of your thoughts.
I have just over a year before I too will humiliate myself in public facilities :<
Excellent post as always Tam. Rest assured we are keeping tabs on Humbert the Cradle Robber.
I had considerably more tolerance for that particular activity when I was younger too. I suppose it’s the realizing my own stupidity and not wanting to revisit it on *quite* such a regular basis that makes up most of my distaste.
Nonsense Vorla, you’ll just make them feel bad about themselves
The problem is that you’re either in a guild or not in it. There’s no way to hang out with your guild and not let him be around short of gkicking. There’s no equivalent of sitting at the other table or only going out when you know he’s not coming with.
There is /ignore, but that’s only known to you and him. It doesn’t send a message the way a cold shoulder would. Maybe that’s better; why do we need to broadcast our moral superiority? But it’s not just about being self-righteous and superior, it’s also about possibly swaying the opinions of others.
The ideal would be what can happen in real life: Your shunning spreads to others until he has no friends and leaves. This doesn’t work as well in guilds because at best we can not talk to them in gchat; there’s no physical gesture of rejection or even tone of voice.
Hmmmm…I can’t quite judge the tone of this response, but I certainly wasn’t trying to come across as self-righteous or superior (although I suppose that is inevitable if you do judge the actions of others).
I think perhaps I expressed myself too strongly when I spoke of rejecting others in large social gatherings – I wasn’t actually suggesting I spend my life turning my back on other people and standing in the corner, sneering, like Mr Darcy – I just mean that in the “real” world boundaries are easily and more subtly negotiated – for example it’s quite easy to avoid someone, and allow them to avoid you, without doing the whole “I will not gratify you with my august presence if HE is in the room” routine.
And actually trying to manipulate him into guild quitting by making everyone else hate him is an unbelievably shitty thing to do… as it would be to eject soemone from a friendship circle simply because you make it so socially awkward for everyone they were too unhappy to stay…
I didn’t mean to imply that you are being self-righteous. I was just trying to point out how the absolute in-or-out nature of guilds makes it impossible to express opinions or beliefs as easily as in real life.
You’re not a moralistic prick. Instead you’re just someone who realized that on the other end of the text is a person. Sometimes we realize this and it is a positive thing as we develop a stronger connection to that person. Other times we realize “if he isn’t just spewing crap, he’s a pretty horrible person” or “even if he is just spewing crap, he’s pretty bad.”
It’s only natural to have a strong response when you see something as more than just words, but as possible indicators of actions or personality.
Sorry, I’m overly self-conscious of the fact that I was basically horribly judgemental – condemning your fellow human beings is a dangerous business (casting the first stone and all that) and I do, in fact, feel a bit self righteous standing up going “you, yes you, you suck! You are bad!” Even if it does seem to be an appropriate response to his words/behaviour.
But, yes, the way guilds, and online communication generally, work seems, sadly, to iron out a lot of social subtlety. It is, as you say, depressingly difficult to textually cold shoulder someone. Heheh, maybe we need a new emote (Tamarind is now giving you the cold shoulder)…
The thing that’s really depressing about the whole business is, as you point out, the fact he’s probably making it all up – and what a thing to make up! Why would someone ever think that was a good idea?!
Well, I can’t comment on Humbert except to say if I ever see it in my guild they’d likely get kicked. I’d say idiot boasting is idiotic. Idiot breaking law? Byebye. Wouldn’t want my guild associated with it.
On a different note, yes icecrown! Go sign up for a raid or something
God, Nich, I couldn’t be responsible for that – it’d be like some kind of guild-Dystopia. “Don’t say anything in front of Tam, he freaks out, accuses you sexual abuse and then gets you g-kicked.” And then the guild message of the day would be all “betray your friends and family! fabulous prizes to be won!” It’d be horrible
Besides, you’d probably have to run off the rest us retrobates as well, with our music-downloading, under-age drinking ways…
’tis why I said “If I see it”, I couldn’t put you in a spot where it’d be your fault. Not fair on you.
On the other hand, I think “betray your friends and family for prizes” sounds like one hell of an idea for a guild event.
“What would you do for 10,000 gold?” … hmm
Well, I actually *sang* for tinsy winsy fraction of that so it’s clear that I’m blatantly anybody’s for a cup of tea and a chocolate biscuit…
I think that there is truly something to be said for what Cass had to say – that people behave differently because of the ‘annonymity’ of the internet. I find it an interesting indicator of the type of person you are dealing with – people tend to let their hair down when dealing with others over the nets. It also reflects on the maturity of the individual – they seem to think that EVEN WHILE THEY ARE INTERACTING with you, that you aren’t real, don’t have real feelings, etc. I’ve found that the people who are honest and mature on the internet are the type of people I really get along with – while the ones who aren’t really aren’t worth my time.
Thinking about it reminds me about Plato’s allegory of the Ring of Gyges. (For those not in the know, the story of the Ring of Gyges is about how people would behave immorally if they had the ability to be invisible). I would say that Plato’s conclusions are largely supported. In a guild wherein there are no consequences for douchery, people act like douches. It is only through threat of repercussions (social) that people behave in a reasonable manner.
Anyways, I’m wall-of-texting at this point so I’ll cut it short – thank you for the interesting and provocative discussion on the nature of guilds and putting-up-with-the-douche
That’s barely a picket fence of text, I don’t know what you’re apologising for
Seriously, thanks for taking the time to comment.
Yes, anonymity definitely brings out some weird combination of the best and the worst in people – as I think I said above it’s a bit like alcohol. It gives confidence to uncertain people and turns wankers into even bigger wankers… Of course, some people are just comfortable and good at being themselves, even if they’re drunk, online or anything else.
It’s been a while since I’ve read Plato’s Republic but I do remember the ring (I think I got there via Wells, actually, so I actually take much intellectual credit
)
Oh, poo!
Here I was relieved at your ‘revelation’ (not so much given your writing) that we’re part of the ‘older’ generation passed by by the leet kiddies….
And then damn you have to tell us that you’re ever so much younger than I am
Anyway, loved the write up my angsty Brit friend. Would very much enjoy a nice pub with a fireplace and (heresy) a nice frosty Guinness and discussing this with my internet friends.
If my colleagues at work (lots ‘ PhDs and MDs in teh room) knew I’m a complete wow fanatic, they’d look at me like I was an alien with 15 eyes.
Meh, busy day at work (been working on this post for the past few hours). Guess I’ll stop at this for now.
Maybe I’ll comment on the huuuge ethical dilemna later.
Or maybe I’ll stfu and go play wow.
Thank God the ignore button works on guildmates. I have actually asked and received permission to ignore everyone in the guild BUT the GM, because, if I am required to put up with this kind of bullshit, I will burn bridges, and head on to greener (purpler? wider? less uncouth?) pastures.
Oh dear, I feel really old now.
To me… you are kind of young.
More seriously, guilds hold a couple of social roles in wow. Some guilds function as a club with a purpose – usually raiding or pvp. Others are a more social construct, where the members become close friends and guild chat or vent become places to socialize.
My social guild, made up of friends I know in RL and friends I’ve made in the virtual world, is terrible at raiding. Too many people who value time with their kids or their alts over time spent gearing up and learning strats. I can’t argue with their choices, particularly the children
, but it means we fail at reg ToC 25. On the other hand, I never ever hear about illegal drug use, statutory rape, or competing stories about the best brawl ever. And anyone who uses gay as anything other than a term denoting sexual preference gets publicly frowned at until they stop. It’s a happy place to be.
My first raiding guild… well, I felt OLD. And I didn’t spend much time in vent hanging out. My current one is much better. Our focus is raiding, but the stories confine themselves to young and dumb speaks out, not morally ambiguous. (Well, unless you object to underage drinking stories.)
So, I guess what I am saying is that you can find a raiding guild that speaks to your maturity level if you look, or a social guild where you can be happy.
I’ve been struggling with this issue as well, or rather with the “how do you deal with that one annoying person in your guild” part. An ex-guildie recently returned from having left for Aion, and while many people seem to think that he’s the bee’s knees, I just find him obnoxious and annoying (if not quite on the levels in your example). I try to be of a “live and let live” mentality most of the time, but he’s the type who “shouts out into the void” A LOT, so it’s really hard to ignore him – even if I put him specifically on ignore, he’ll always get people to respond to him and then I hear half a conversation and… it’s just so bloody uncomfortable and AWKWARD. I even stopped raiding for a couple of weeks just to be rid of him, but it’s still been a very unpleasant situation.
I just “dinged 40″ you little whippersnapper! lol
Can’t figure out new-fangled technology? BAH! I say…
Just wait until you’re at work and that cute little thing (or cute hunky thing, depending on the person) walks over and gives you a carefree hug.
Not because you’re cool or cute, but because you’re “that sweet old guy/gal”.
The hair growing from inapproptiate places doesn’t help.
On topic: I have played a couple thousand hours of games online, mostly on XBOX Live. I have never met a more contemptable, loud, lewd, lacivous and lame group of people. (not all of them. there are wonderful people there as well)
BUT, hearing some little 12 year old yell “I raped yer ass, n00b!!!” over voice chat is just horrible on so many levels. So, while WoW definitely has it’s trollish population, the complexity of the gamerewquires at least SOME modicum of intellect and tech savvy, unlike the XBL gen-pop.
Like most here, I think Humbert’s comments were most likely unfounded boasts. nd while I cmpletely agree with the line in the sand aspect, I just can’t get too worked up.
It’s not that I think the implied actions are “ok”, or anything like that.
It’s just that I am tired of ALL that type of cr@p. Some of it is SO evil, heinous and nasty, that I’ve become a bit “jaded” such that the random everyday dick-headishneess kind of just washes over me.
I’m bad like that.
BUT, very nice, thought provoking article!!! WELL DONE!
On my anniversary I lofted into the void so and my girlfriend felt sordid and depressed for just under 16 years.
Sorry, I don’t know why I needed to say that.
To me it’s the old ‘takes a village’ thing. Someone got on my guild chat with a hearty ’seig heil’ the other day and literally had no idea why it could be considered offensive. Didn’t know where it came from or what it implied.
Particularly in the case of complex moral/ethical issues the older you are the more time you have had to think about them. So you might be the first point of exposure to this idiot that some people don’t think that’s cool or clever.
Perhaps that derives from the same issue of virtual space. It’s easy to just walk away. In a village you have to do something about it cause that kid’s going to be mayor some day.
Somebody greeted guild chat with ’seig heil’?! A world of sighs. Actually I remember Hine posting a few days ago about somebody sending ASCII swastika out across guild chat … like, seriously, what is *wrong* with people! Gah! I guess I’m inclined to be rather unforgiving of that kind of ignorance – if you don’t know what you’re saying, then perhaps you should shut the fuck up… Ditto banging 15 year olds. But, yeah, I’m just being grumpy.
But, yes, the village versus the virtual is a good way of looking at it…
Excellent post Tamarind, interesting read. I understand and feel where you and others in commenters (?) and I would personaly /gkicked Humbert straight off as I do not have high tolerance threshold for stuff like this. But let me loop back to this:
“I think these suggest something we all quite strongly believe: although there is an element of the social in most guilds, to a greater or lesser extent, for the most part we view them as functional groupings rather than personal ones.”
I disagree there. I absolutely depends on the kind of guild you are in. I led an RP guild where it was all about social ties and relationships, hell we even ended up on real life meeting in London and we had a blast (over a pint of Guiness) and although it is two years back, I still have many of them in my IM and we still chat and we exchange Xmas cards and stuff with 3 others.
However I agree that any guild / group that focuses on raiding indeed is more “functional grouping” and you are likely to meet people who do not “fit” you there. I can tell – when being in a Raiding Group we could’ve been freely guilded around and just kept our bank alts in the Group bank guild, I oftentimes typed /leave chat to hang out just with guildies. Funny enough, most of my guildies were in the same Raiding Group, but the chat always revolved about our lives and common stuff – but I guess you can account that to the average age in guild being 30 years.
I actually learned since then that leaving guild chat is the best possible option to avoid unwanted conversation while you do not feel like reaching for total ingore is in place. I just type something like “Sorry guys, not in mood for this convo so switching chat off, if you need me pst.” and just uncheck the channel from displaying.
The only time over 5 years I went that far to /ignore a guildy I was out of the guild in next week cause my /ignore list was full.
Ah, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul. I always enjoy your literary references.
I wrote a post on my old srs blog a couple of years ago about hebephilia which basically agrees with your line in the sand position when it comes to age of consent issues (Age of Consent always make me think of a video game for some reason).
For what it’s worth I think he was probably just showing off, but it’s still probably not the best way to win friends and influence people to announce in /g that you’re a kiddy fiddler. gkicking, ignoring or berating are all reasonable responses imho.
Getting to the point of the post, I actually think that being in a guild is closer to having a job than anything else, and moreso with Cataclysm. You get interviewed, and if admitted, you get perks, promotion etc. You’re trying to achieve a goal in the company of people who wouldn’t necessarily be RL friends, and there’s a corporate culture which you may or may not like, but is generally hard to change without support from the top. And, like a company, there are always a few twats who you want to punch, but don’t, in the interests of group cohesion etc.
And as for being old at 26, don’t make me laugh. I’m 48 and stil not old (quite). Now gerrof my lawn!
P.S How about “what is analogous to being in a Guild ?”
“But where do you draw the line? At what point do you say: actually, no, I know this group is about coming together and achieving a thing, but this is too much for me, I could not, and would not, countenance this in my real life, why should I in a virtual space?”
I hit that in a raid. Not long before I quit WoW, actually. Not for any reasons like yours, but just that I wasn’t enjoying the way the raid was being run. I tried to talk to the relevant person to see if it was possible to change anything to make it something that would be jointly more enjoyable, but it seemed not.
In the end, I gave up participating, was (extremely) lucky enough to find a friend who was willing to fill in for the last 10 minutes for me – yes, it was that close to the end but I could not and would not take any more – and logged out.
I wasn’t having fun. I’d tried to initiate change to make it fun, but it seemed that fun for me was not fun for the others, so it was best for me to leave and not sit and get more and more unhappy.
Now off to read everyone else’s comments here. Best wishes.