i’ll sell my soul, my self esteem
a dollar at a time for one chance, one kiss
one taste of you my magdalena
(okay, there’s no reason for the song lyric at all, except a vague thematic connection and I like it, dammit)
I won my perky pug the other day – and how fitting it seems. I mean, you get the thing and it looks a bit dubious but basically not as bad as it could. And just when you’ve lulled yourself into thinking it’ll probably turn out all right, it starts wiping its arse on the carpet. Just like a pickup group.
As you can tell, I’ve been at the Sanity Tap again … and I’m starting to notice something that disconcerts me, even more than foul-mouthed Italians and inept DPS. It ties in vaguely with a comment Chas drew my attention to over a Spinks place, when she was talking about under what circumstances you’d vote to kick someone from a group. I can’t remember the name or the exact words (which is probably for the best) but the commenter said something along the lines of rather having someone along who was openly racist, sexist and homophobic and did 7k DPS than someone who was none of the above and only did 3k DPS. Now, both Chas and I thought this was laughable, albeit for different reasons. Chas thought it was absurd because to be racist in WoW involves taking time out to actually type racist sentiments into the game – which is time that could be spent doing actually DPS, ergo a racist DPSer is objectively less good at DPS than a non-racist one – he was, to be fair, being slightly frivolous about it but the point stands. And I thought it was absurd because, well, let’s take a closer look at this shall we:
What would having our 7k racist along on a heroic run actually gain us?
Actually really.
About 5 minutes.
So what the commenter was actually saying was that he would sell his integrity and his pride for 5 minutes.
You fucking loser.
I wouldn’t sell a used sock for 5 minutes.
And the more I’ve been pugging recently the more I’ve seen people actually willing to throw away their basic human rights, their self-esteem and god knows what else for those five lousy minutes.
Seriously, guys, what’s with that? I mean, we all like an efficient heroic as much as the next person but surely there are limits?!
I’ve recently added a final line to my PUG macro. It goes:
/p And if anybody links recount, I will leave the group immediately.
Maybe I just have a miraculous wanker-attraction field radiating from me in all directions, drawing them inescapably to my side from the drooling depths of Crushridge, but I’ve had a run of pugs in which there has been an awful lot of DPS-dickswinging (dick per second, if you will). I had a quite a mixed group – over-geared me, over-geared tank, relatively newly dinged 80 and a couple of moderately-geared others. Dick Per Second Numero Uno did about 3-4k DPS so nothing to cause actual instantaneous, adoring ejaculation. But nevertheless he took it into his head, which head I don’t know, to lay into the newish 80 doing only 1.2-1.5k.
Needless to say, I took exception, and leapt into verbal action, pointing out the guy was a new 80 and doing perfectly respectable damage for his gear and how the hell was he supposed to gear up if people kept giving him shit for it and so on and so forth (I should probably macro this speech too).
But what completely threw me was that the new guy promptly abased himself. He agreed with his abuser – his DPS was rubbish, and he could take the shit.
That’s not the point, I roared. It’s the principle of the thing. You’re perfectly entitled to gear up in peace and without mockery and criticism. Putting up with other people explicitly being arseholes to you should not be the price of badges.
Whereupon everyone got very embarrassed – as if I was somebody’s Mum who’d written to the Head Master about the bullying problem – and told me to shut up.
I’m sorry, but that is genuinely creepy. Big Brother is mocking your DPS and you love him for it.
There was a brief period of time, not long after I finished my undergraduate degree and I thought I’d never want to go anywhere near academia ever again, in which I contemplated being a teacher. Naturally I was insanely idealistic about the whole notion – I would be bringing a Genuine Love of Literature to the deprived and hopeless – so I spent most of my time in exceptionally rough and unhappy schools, trying not to get knifed. And occasionally you’d hear a commotion from the loos only to find some spindly kid having his face flushed in the toilet and there was never anything you could do about it (bar the extremely practical – dry him off) mainly because you could never get anybody to admit it either happened or it wasn’t, somehow, how the fault of the flushed not the flusher. More flushed against than flushing. To this day, it still infuriates me – I know it’s just one of those things and adults cannot hope to protect children against other children but complicity never makes it better, only worse.
For fucking fucking fucks’s sake, bullying is not okay. I know there’s a terrible shame in being bullied (far worse to be bullied than be a bully, or so we are conditioned to believe) but we are goddamn grown ups and this is a goddamn game. A capacity to put with dickheads is not character building, it doesn’t demonstrate strength of personality or strength of will – it just means you’re willing to put up with dickheads.
And the difference between 2k DPS and 7k DPS is five … fucking … minutes.
Another PUG Tale, which I feel comes from a vaguely connected place, is the Group That Kicked Me. Yes, I was voted from a group. My first time ever. We were in the Pit of Saron, we wiped, we corpse-ran … at least, all but one of us.
“Rez plz,” he chirped.
“You read the macro,” I responded. “If we wipe, we all run, that’s the rule.”
“Ffs. Just rez me.”
(For the record, this is the rapidly becoming one of my bete noirs – getting rezzed, like being healed, is a privilege not a right, and, just out of sheer bloody mindedness, I’m not rezzing you if you demand it, or criticise my healing)
“No. These guys all ran, you can run.”
Whereupon, to my surprise, the rest of the PUG weighed in with “Just rez him” “Gogogog” “we’re wasting time” and other such insights.
“Look,” I said, reasonably, “if I rez him, next time we wipe, you’ll all expect me to rez you and then I’ll be the poor bastard doing the corpse run and that’s not okay.”
“No,” said our Dead Friend, “just me. The other guys can run.”
“Yeah,” agreed the other guys. “We’ll run. Just rez him so we can go.”
“But that’s totally unfair,” I pointed out. “You shouldn’t have to indulge this guy’s laziness.”
They didn’t care. They just wanted to gogogogo. The precious five minutes that could have been saved by rolling over like bitches was ticking away.
There were a few more attempts to basically rez-rape me. It doesn’t matter how many times you say rez, or how many exclamation marks you put on the end, it still doesn’t motivate me to do it.
And then they vote kicked me.
How weird is that?
Well, maybe I was being a twat, but I think I was being less of a twat than Mr I’m Too Awesome To Corpse Run. Also why should one person be entitled to different treatment to others? And surely rezzing him would have essentially amounted to positive feedback for being a cockmonkey – maybe that was part of the problem. Maybe too many other healers before me had just caved, and therefore he’d concluded that being a douchebag was the best way to get his own way. And it seems it totally was.
I don’t understand the value of this mythical five minutes. I know five minutes over a lot of PUGs adds up to a significant time investment but, really, it’s not so much that it seems worth what people seem willing to take in pursuit of it. And ultimately if you’ve got to the stage where five minutes, or hell, let’s push the boat out here, let’s go crazy and say even ten, is worth more than justice, kindness, compassion, integrity, and common sense we are truly truly FUCKED my friends.
Being healed is a privilege? I'm sorry, I thought healing, and by extension, rezzing, was your job. I hope to never pug with you. You might want to read Gevlon's post about your post. http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2010/01/harming-...
Being healed is a privilege? I'm sorry, I thought healing, and by extension, rezzing, was your job. I hope to never pug with you. You might want to read Gevlon's post about your post. http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2010/01/harming-...
I did read it, and I posted a response actually.
Although rezzing people who die in battle and people who have a reason for not running (i.e. a bio break or they need to analyse the wipe) is most assuredly my job, rezzing lazy fuckers who won't run like the rest of us isn't.
The healer's job is to heal damage (the clue is in the name), not laziness, for which there is no remedy.
Sounds like a good idea, actually, I might try it
Although it annoys me that passive-aggressive strategies work more effectively that straightforward ones.
But, hey, I'll try anything
Argue away, as long as you're not calling me a cunt or telling me to get a life, I don't mind
1) I don't consider LFG Pugs "normal" – they're particularly rough on tanks and healers, and I've had some thoroughly horrible experiences. Now, I know those horrible experiences are no reason to treat subsequent groups badly but I've found – as a healer – that the easiest way to get through them is lay down your ground rules and have done as quickly as possible. Commenters have pointed out that having a macro that says "these be my rules" discourages collaborative play and essentially imposes the will of an individual on the group – and they're right, it is'a dickish thing to do. BUT it makes my life bearable, it makes my groups run smoother and actually it's made them slightly more sociable – the macro itself is lighthearted and people usually chuckle and bond over it because it's not like I'm asking people to behave in a way that wouldn't be anyway. A good DPS does not pull aggro from the tank or stand in fire. And that doesn't mean if someone takes a bit of splash damage I'll deny them my sweet sweet healin, it just means that if there's a hunter standing in mojo, drooling and twitching, there's a point at which I'm going to give up healing him, and ultimately he has no right to expect that I shouldn't, especially if me keeping the hunter alive is endangering other players and the tank.
2) I played the power card specifically in response to Gevlon's post – as a rhetorical device to point out that there is a degree of enlightened self-interest in the decision to rez or not to rez, and also that us Socials sometimes have reasons beyong cluelessness for doing what we do. I don't actually get off on rezzing people, that would be weird. Connected to this, I didn't see it as "punishment" per se – it's not place to punish players who piss me off, all I can do is remove myself from them. I wasn't intending my refusal to rez him as a punishment for not releasing: it was more that I couldn't bring myself to reward him for being a dickhead. Although in practice these are the same, I think there's a important conceputal difference.
3) I use my non-combat rez as I thought everyone else did. I rez players when they die in battle or when they fall off a cliff or between the frogger slimes in Naxx or when I'm in a raid because that's what you do. I rez people who need to take a bio break during a corpse run. I rez people if they need to feed the dog during a corpse run. I rez people if they want to analyse why we wiped or re-read their combat logs. I rez whoever needs rezzing. What made you think I didn't use it? I use it all the time.
What I do not do, however, is take a solitary corpse run and then rez the whole group. This is *inefficient* compared to everyone running back – firstly because it takes more time, and also because your average PUG tank will leap into battle the moment he is rezzed, when I have no mana and he has no health, likely leading to another wipe. Equally, on principle, I won't rez someone who refuses to run back with the rest of us, and demands to be rezzed as if he is entitled to special treatment for being a dickhead.
Why is it worse for me not to rez him than it was for him not to run?
The etiquette is generally understood, I believe, to be wipe = all run.
I'm not suggesting that you did a worse thing than Mr. Rez Plz, I'm suggesting that you didn't do a better thing. You stuck to your stated policy, and I think that's fine. In the eyes of your groupmates, though, you did the same thing: cause a delay. They responded to that, since that's what has some effect on themselves.
My reason for responding in the first place was to suggest exactly that: While your original post suggests that something outrageous happened (you got kicked), it wasn't outrageous at all. For the majority of your groupmates, kicking one or the other of you was the only way to move forward. I think that's just logical self-interest on their part. Two jokers arguing = no progress, kicking one joker out = chance at progress.
I don't think I ever tried to claim the moral high ground for this one – nor did I claim outrage, merely bewilderment, given that, under the circumstances, I would have kicked the other guy. That, in turn, doesn't mean I resent, or cant understand why, that they kicked me – it's merely 'logical self-interest' to replace a DPS (which takes 2 seconds) over a healer (which takes 10 minutes).
Fair enough, regarding the group's logical failure. I would also have a higher threshold for rejecting a healer than a DPSer.
I think we're in agreement on the rest.
Thanks!
I'm not suggesting that you did a worse thing than Mr. Rez Plz, I'm suggesting that you didn't do a better thing. You stuck to your stated policy, and I think that's fine. In the eyes of your groupmates, though, you did the same thing: cause a delay. They responded to that, since that's what has some effect on themselves.
My reason for responding in the first place was to suggest exactly that: While your original post suggests that something outrageous happened (you got kicked), it wasn't outrageous at all. For the majority of your groupmates, kicking one or the other of you was the only way to move forward. I think that's just logical self-interest on their part. Two jokers arguing = no progress, kicking one joker out = chance at progress.
Well to gather enough badges to equip yourself with the welfare badge epics T9 x 4 pieces, + neck +belt + ring+ trinket takes about 50-60 HC runs x (roughly) 5 minutes quickly adds up to over 6 hours of gameplay, which for some people is a day or two wasted. Especially in my case since I rerolled after I got hacked and had to gear up asap to get into the raiding game again. I know it's perfectly possible to raid with lesser gear, but I don't like being carried and with the welfare epics and what gear I pick up along the way I performed 10-20% less than the guildie that's in full 232+ gear, instead of 50-60%. But I guess this is just me, I've tanked a fair few pugs with similiar guys, wanting a rez. I simply declined and told the healer( my guildie to do the same and let the fucker run) , he simply had no other option than to release. I usually don't make a point of carrying some guys as I almost always roll with a few guildies that pull 6-7k dps. But if you're 80 and you're pulling less than 1k dps you really need to go die in a fire. But if the guy is pulling good dps for his gear and is not ''standing in the fire'' and is not a douchebag we close our eyes and explain him the boss tactics. that's my two cents.
Well to gather enough badges to equip yourself with the welfare badge epics T9 x 4 pieces, + neck +belt + ring+ trinket takes about 50-60 HC runs x (roughly) 5 minutes quickly adds up to over 6 hours of gameplay, which for some people is a day or two wasted. Especially in my case since I rerolled after I got hacked and had to gear up asap to get into the raiding game again. I know it's perfectly possible to raid with lesser gear, but I don't like being carried and with the welfare epics and what gear I pick up along the way I performed 10-20% less than the guildie that's in full 232+ gear, instead of 50-60%. But I guess this is just me, I've tanked a fair few pugs with similiar guys, wanting a rez. I simply declined and told the healer( my guildie to do the same and let the fucker run) , he simply had no other option than to release. I usually don't make a point of carrying some guys as I almost always roll with a few guildies that pull 6-7k dps. But if you're 80 and you're pulling less than 1k dps you really need to go die in a fire. But if the guy is pulling good dps for his gear and is not ''standing in the fire'' and is not a douchebag we close our eyes and explain him the boss tactics. that's my two cents.
Sorry for the late comment, came from another website. I will remove myself from a group where one or more members refuses to corpse run to the instance after a full group wipe. Most of my characters are healers and it is a widespread problem on the battlegroups I frequent. Next time I am healing or dpsing I think I should wait for a rez as well, see what they think of it. Even if it is only for the attention to the problem it will cause with those other 4 because you know for a fact they havent thought of it that way. My recent post Mains
No problem, comments are always appreciated
I think the mistake I made was discussing it. These days if somebody won't run when I asked them politely to do so, then I'll just drop the group.
No problem, comments are always appreciated
I think the mistake I made was discussing it. These days if somebody won't run when I asked them politely to do so, then I'll just drop the group.
No problem, comments are always appreciated
I think the mistake I made was discussing it. These days if somebody won't run when I asked them politely to do so, then I'll just drop the group.
No problem, comments are always appreciated
I think the mistake I made was discussing it. These days if somebody won't run when I asked them politely to do so, then I'll just drop the group.
[...] Would You Sell Your Pride For 5 Minutes over at Righteous Orbs is an interesting look at the tradeoffs people make for civility. (I don’t hesitate to drop party if I’m the only one I know in it, by the way. The only exception is when I’m tanking.) [...]
[...] } My two cents on “Harming others for being fair” I’m sorry Tamarind got kicked from a group for sticking up for principles. If I had been in that group, then I [...]
[...] is after he demanded a rez and I gave him one, despite the corpse run being seconds long (sorry Tam, I think I was in such shock by the dire pulling I still automatically felt the wipe was my fault [...]
[...] Until a healer is tried and deemed a total waste of pixels by the entire group (even for ludicrous reasons) the chances that a party will form up, someone will raise concerns about the healer, and everyone [...]
[...] was thinking about this after reading Tam’s complaint about people who refuse to run back to an instance after a wipe, and about how he dealt with [...]
[...] thinking back to Tamarind’s recent post about refusing to rez a jerk in a Pug, in no small part because he was being a [...]