I think I over-raided myself last week. I did Ulduar on Tuesday, 25-man ICC on Wednesday and 10-man ICC on Thursday. And they were all some combination of frustrating / dissatisfying.
The Ulduar because there’s a general lack of enthusiasm for anything that isn’t current content in the guild (which is fair enough, but personally disappointing) so that we were constantly playing musical raiders and progress was accordingly slow. Oh and one of the other healers decided to wave her wowcock in my face by bragging about how much healing she did on Kologarn (both the tanks and that silly priest who was, shock horror, kiting the eyebeams). Well I was healing both the tanks, the silly priest AND the rest of the fucking raid. We all wowcock, it’s part and parcel of the game, really, the eternal massaging of the wowock, but I particularly despise the sort that involves idly smacking another player in the face with it. It’s pretty difficult to have a healing wowcock anyway (woot, I kept people alive, go me) but the only way to do it is to brag about your awesome healing at the expense of other people’s inadequate healing – which is about as good for morale as if you just walked up to the other healers and spat in their faces. There is no wowcock in team.
ICC 25-man started badly because we were stuck standing outside the instance for over an hour because the server was full, and we never really recovered our morale or our focus. We tore through the first two bosses and stuttered into oblivion on Saurfang. I think everybody was out of sorts but we were generally ill co-ordinated. I know I was tired and not performing especially well, and couple of times I just failed miserably to get it together. “Keep this guy alive, Tam.” “Sure thing.” “Splat” “Ah.” Or alternatively “somebody keep this other guy alive.” And then I’d dither between taking responsibility or not – with the upshot that either he’d keel over completely heal-less, or he’d get overhealed to the nth degree, and then keel over anyway as the rest of the healers realised that everybody was healing him and stop en masse.
It was the healing equivalent of three English people trying to get through a door. Oh no, after you. I couldn’t possibly. BASH. So sorry, please allow me. BASH. My apologies. I insist. No, you go. BASH. Sigh.
And ICC-10, again, started late but this time because some fuckwit didn’t bother to show up, leaving 9 of us standing around like really pissed off potatoes. Mood thus soured, we raced into the Plague Wing and then just fell apart, wiping on trash and once because the tank pulled Precious or Stinky (also, what’s with the rampant favouritism going on there?! Long live Stinky, the deeply under-appreciated, you’ll always be precious to me, darling) while the tank healer was getting a drink. We then took our scheduled 10 minute raiding break, whereupon Some Fuckwit TM buggered off to Org and kept us all waiting for 20 minutes while he picked his nose and had a wank.
Now, there may once have been an incident in which a certain sissy-robe wearing priest got big fiery hat and ran away, squealing, to get it gemmed and enchanted during the 10 minute break … but he was very very sorry about it. (also, big fiery hat – special circs, right? Okay, maybe not, but I’ll never do it again, and that was more in the order of 2 minutes, not 20, and did I say I was very very sorry?). But our Resident Fuckwit didn’t even seem to think it was a problem to keep the rest of us waiting on his pleasure.
We foundered on Festergut – I think I performed pretty appallingly actually. It wasn’t that I wasn’t trying but I had no investment left in the raid whatsoever. It really was a losing game of whackamole – I started off disc to help with the tank healing, but then the raid died in droves. Then I switched to holy and the raid stayed alive, but the tanks kept falling over. I want to blame the other raid healer (a random tree) simply because he was the guy from this post, but I guess we should have just been grateful he was deigning to heal for us in tree form at all. *bows down*
I suppose is the natural flow of endgame raiding – highs and lows, successes and failures, but these felt like meta-failures to me. I’m happy to wipe on content, but I’m not happy to wipe because I don’t care enough about the people I’m raiding enough to pull my finger out. I don’t want to wipe because people are lazy, uncommunicative or just don’t give a fuck about anyone else in the raid.
A long long long time ago I wrote a post about how a friend acquaintance person I knew, who was in a Srs Raiding Guild back on ED, told me that if you want to raid properly you have to put up with wankers because you’re there to succeed at the game not, y’know, have fun… all right, I’m misquoting him, but not have a pleasant tea-sipping time of it. Blogosphere, you lied to me. You told me it was not so.
Now, I’m not trying to say that I’m better than anyone else you’re likely to find trawling LFG in Azeroth. I’m dickish and vindictive and mean, and my healing is way too preferential. I’m not as generous or as forgiving to people as I would like to be, in real life, or in WoW. On the plus side, I’m not that great at the game either, so I can at least be relied upon not to brag about how great I am in guild. And the last time I checked I wasn’t statuarystatutory rapist.
And I have to accept that my standards of dickishness are entirely arbitrary – I cannot expect them to the marker by which worth is measured. In short: I will have to raid with people I consider to be dickheads, and I’ll have to put up with it, and I’ll have to make sure it doesn’t impact my raid performance… at least if I want to be functional raider. And, truthfully, I’m not sure I can. I’m not sure it’s worth it. I don’t want to raid THAT much. I don’t want a bbq hat THAT much.
But meta-things matter to me. A sense of team spirit. Investment in the success of others – the happiest thing that happened to me in an ICC raid recently was something dropped for one of my favourite shaman (actually, I really like our other shaman as well – there’s something about shaman, they tend to be fantastic, I reckon it’s that bloody Wossname of Water questline, really separates the wheat from the chaff). And while we were blazing through trash, she cried spontaneously over Vent: “this is so fun!” THAT’S what I like about raiding.
Over the weekend, I took a break from WoW and I sat down, and seriously thought about what I want to get out of endgame. Yes, I want to experience the content, and yes I’d quite like some shinies, but I think, mainly, I want to feel part of something. And this is a silly, sentimental goal entirely at variance with why the majority of people seem to play the game.
I have been in several guilds over my time playing WoW – a social guild that fell apart at endgame because it could not sustain a community with two such divergent sets of needs and interests, the notorious failguild, and my current guild which is undoubtedly and indisputably by far the best of the bunch. It is a strong, established, casual-raiding guild with a core of thoroughly excellent people, and with whom I am honoured to play. But I think perhaps I am not a person designed to be a part of things, no matter how much I try to be. There has to come a point when you stop blaming the holes and give up on the peg.
/hughughug
*deletes side-tracked comment about peg and peg-shaped things*
Have I mentioned that I play a shaman?
My recent post RL BossMods
Thank you.
And I'm totally not surprised you're a shaman
I have never personally experienced WoW endgame; I'm reading this blog mainly for the hilarious stories. But it strikes me that "feeling part of something" must surely be something that in an ideal world would be inherent to the raiding culture? As far as I can tell (from my limited experiences of WoW) group quests and raids are in there *because* the designers want you to enjoy a shared experience as part of a group, and feel that you've achieved something that you couldn't have achieved by yourself.
Unfortunately, I get the impression (from reading your posts and Chas's) that there's an unintended consequence of this: because there's content that you can only ever see or experience as part of a raid, people who want to experience said content pretty much have to join guilds and raids, not because they actually like or enjoy or are good at being in a guild or part of a raid but because that's the only way they'll get to see some parts of the setting.
This might be a consequence of the blog's focus, but I've also got the impression that in the endgame there really isn't that much single-player content – or at least, not much which isn't just a advanced form of the sort of stuff you've been doing all along like crafting and fishing. One wonders whether the raiding culture hasn't been influenced by an injection of people who don't really have much interest in playing with others at all, but have reached a point in the game where if they don't raid they'll have very little to do beyond generate another alt and start levelling and questing all over again.
This is just the sort of idea of the situation I've got from reading the blog, actual WoW participants are probably better placed than I am to make the call. But it seems to me that if there isn't a viable non-group route for solitary/small-group minded players to go run around the raid locations, and if the focus of the endgame is on raiding, then you're always going to get people on the raiding scene who consider being "part of something" a means to an end – perhaps even an onerous or troublesome means to an end – and not an end in itself. And that's inevitably going to impact the people who *do* see it as a goal.
(To clarify: I don't think there *should* be a solitary/small-group means of experiencing raid content or touring the locations, necessarily. I just think that the fact that you need to raid to experience some content may prompt some people to raid for reasons that have nothing to do with actually enjoying – or being good at – raiding or being in a raid group.)
You have hit the nail on the head. There is NOT any real "solo/small group" content available. Well, there is (they're called heroics) but they ar not really all that hard (many/most can be blazed through in 20 minutes or less) and that is theexact same content you have to grind to get your gear (via emblems of triumph & frost) via the LFG (aka sanity tap) system. Hardly rewarding from a "personal experience" basis.
I am in a similar situation, though my raiding exp has been much more limited due to the fact that I have yet to find a casual guild that raids when I am available. (I'm on a PST time server, and most guilds I've seen are populated by EST folks that play "early")
Second-to-last paragraph kinda sums it up for me too; the need to feel part of something. Silly? Sentimental? Nah, I'd call it human. As well as Wow I play sports, a lot of them. The best kind? The ones where the partnership or team work in harmony together, where things just click, where you look over at the guy stood next to you and he's got the same goofy grin on his face that you have. That doubles, trebles, quadruples what you get out of anything you do, the sharing of a moment. Damn fine times.
So don't give up on the peg, the peg is always awesome. The peg just needs to find its place in the world, virtual or otherwise. A recent guild-bustup has scattered all the people I shared my goofy grins with, and now I'm on the hunt for more of those moments. Sounds like you have a great guild already, mebbe you just need the right moments to pull it all together. Well, I have hope enough for the both of us.
"And the last time I checked I wasn’t statuary rapist."
I *suspect* that you meant statutory, although a statuary rapist has some connotations that are both amusing and deeply disturbing.
My recent post Macro Spam Redux
There's not much I can say to this except "lol" – and it's cheered me up immensly. Typos for ftw!
I guess I must have some kind of Pygmalian complex! :/
"And the last time I checked I wasn’t statuary rapist."
I *suspect* that you meant statutory, although a statuary rapist has some connotations that are both amusing and deeply disturbing.
My recent post Macro Spam Redux
"And the last time I checked I wasn’t statuary rapist." I *suspect* that you meant statutory, although a statuary rapist has some connotations that are both amusing and deeply disturbing. My recent post Macro Spam Redux
For me the enjoyment comes when the whole group is there together, raiding for the fun of raiding together come what may.
Lately, I have lost that enjoyment. I don't know why some of the people that are with us do want to raid, but it seems to have little to do with raiding with others for the fun of it. Gloomy days at the moment.
Maybe it is time to find another guild. I've only ever been in one guild since I joined it back in 2006, maybe the grass is greener elsewhere, particularly if one does not have to lead anyone.
It might be a wider problem associated with the release of new content, to be honest, in that progression becomes the watchword not, y'know, "fun."
I am saddened to hear things are currently in a bit of a downer with your guild – it always looked fantastic, but I can see responsibilities and adminstration would likely weigh you down.
Find a guild to fit seems an impossible prospect sometimes. I'm grateful for what I do have – a perfect fit strikes me as a pipe dream.
Once upon a time, in my guild, there was the biggest dickhead you could ever imagine. I hated him, he -in turn- loathed me. So that part worked out. I even got so sick of him actively picking on everything I ever did (lol did you just stack spi? "yes, there is a site called Elitist-jerks that says that its the thing to stack for priests" followed by 50 /w calling me all sorts of obscenities). In fact, he bothered me so much, that I just stopped logging in.
Luckily he left, after having fallen out with most of the guild.
My point of this story is, that in chat games, you deal with people very differently. If science is to be believed, around 80% of our communication is non-verbal. And thusly we will misunderstand eachother very very often in games like WoW (also why my work emails gets misunderstood all the time!). So you either end up, really liking players, or really disliking them. If you are like me, then in time, the number of people you dislike will dwindle and almost only consists of: "oh he is one of those people who turns of brain when he turns on pc" or "oh he is 8 and all the words he knows are #¤" &/¤#" and mother"#"@£$€@".
At least its that way for me, and those two catagories… well, i just feel sorry for them
I had a lovely comment wrote up then someone texted me and my iPhone ate it.
TLDR version:
*hug* you is made of win
Au contraire, Blackadder! Endgame is ALL about finding the right guild. I take it for granted far too much, but I’ve been raiding with the same guild (and largely the same people) since Molten Core, and they’re all pretty much fantastic. The raid leader can be a rude and impatient asshat, but mostly only when we deserve it and need a good kicking to remember to not stand in the fire. On the whole, they’re an excellent bunch and the least competent people in the raid are guys you’d slap on your friends list in an instant if you found them in a heroic. I should thank my lucky stars for this guild more often, but it’s only when I read other blogs that it’s hammered home to me how lucky I am.
The thing about guilds, however, is that they change. People leave, new people join and this changes the character of the guild if you don’t have strong leadership. We’re incredibly lucky to have been fairly stable over the last four years with almost all of the officers the same as they were and probably about 30% of the raiders the same as they were 4 years ago too. Not all guilds are this stable, and if you’re not enjoying guildchat you’re probably not going to enjoy raiding either.
Having said that, guilds, as much as people, have their bad patches. I think that the important thing is that you still enjoy being part of the guild, regardless of whether or not you or the guild are both going through a bad patch. If not, you might need to start shopping around for a new guild. Being “by far the best of the bunch” is one thing, but if the bunch are Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin and Charles Manson, you probably need to expand the bunch a little.
I don't think my first post reflected this, but in a whole, i very much agree with my guild-mate above me. We are a great bunch (especcially me, im fantastic and fun. and best of all, modest.)
Hell if it hadn't been for the encouragement of the little-gnome-that-still-uses-a-human-avatar above me, i would not be blogging at all.
Go calli!
also; sometimes i get the option to leave my latest blogpost, and sometimes i do not. Like with this reply, there will be a link to my blog, but in my first one, there won't be.
My recent post Let's go down to the lobby, and get ourselves a treat
I had a lovely comment wrote up then someone texted me and my iPhone ate it.
TLDR version:
*hug* you is made of win
Au contraire, Blackadder! Endgame is ALL about finding the right guild. I take it for granted far too much, but I’ve been raiding with the same guild (and largely the same people) since Molten Core, and they’re all pretty much fantastic. The raid leader can be a rude and impatient asshat, but mostly only when we deserve it and need a good kicking to remember to not stand in the fire. On the whole, they’re an excellent bunch and the least competent people in the raid are guys you’d slap on your friends list in an instant if you found them in a heroic. I should thank my lucky stars for this guild more often, but it’s only when I read other blogs that it’s hammered home to me how lucky I am.
The thing about guilds, however, is that they change. People leave, new people join and this changes the character of the guild if you don’t have strong leadership. We’re incredibly lucky to have been fairly stable over the last four years with almost all of the officers the same as they were and probably about 30% of the raiders the same as they were 4 years ago too. Not all guilds are this stable, and if you’re not enjoying guildchat you’re probably not going to enjoy raiding either.
Having said that, guilds, as much as people, have their bad patches. I think that the important thing is that you still enjoy being part of the guild, regardless of whether or not you or the guild are both going through a bad patch. If not, you might need to start shopping around for a new guild. Being “by far the best of the bunch” is one thing, but if the bunch are Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin and Charles Manson, you probably need to expand the bunch a little.
The problem with end-game is finding a group that you are WILLING to die for–otherwise, you'll just be counting up your repair bills and /eye-rolling at the bad jokes while you wait for people to get back from their smoke breaks.
I never thought I'd be happy with the casual go-lucky group I've found, but I find that even though they can be de noob, it's ok, because I'm having fun even if the bosses aren't dying.
You know what makes me so sad? Several of the people in my ICC10 man team and I were sitting in google chat talking about this post. And we said to ourselves, selves, why can't Tam come raid with us? He would fit right in. I believe Fulguralis referred to you as the "quirky englishman". And I thought, wouldn't that be fantastic? I would figure out how to make it work, I most certainly would. We raid Ulduar10 on Sunday nights for kicks. We focus on ICC for only 2 hours per week, but we have fun when we do it, and we keep getting better. Also, I flirt with all the bosses (yes, even Lady Deathwhisper). We would love to have you, and I'm certain you would enjoy it as well.
And then we realized that Blizzard does not want people to enjoy positive Euro-American relationships and hates us all and therefore won't let me create a character on your server because it's EU, and therefore you can't join us on ours.
It's all so very tragic and unfair. weep.
My recent post A Little Give, A Little Take
Miss Medi – I had the same thoughts, though mine were a tad more selfish… My current guild situation is less than ideal, and if my signing on to AD Eu and whisping Tam with "rez plz" would lighten his day, (and would make me giggle in hysterics for a while) then it would be worthwhile, and hiopefully lighten all of our days.
I'm not sure I'd pay for server transfer (the 8 hour time difference would be a tad much) but i would at least consider it.
Of course, I now have this image of a bunch of the blog readers creating level 1's on his server just to whipser Tam with "rez plz". It's quite the amusing thought, though it would probably get annoying after a while. =^)
Yes, sometimes I think how unfair it is that my brother gets to kill titans and such in EVE with an Italian fleet commander (he's picked up a few choice Italian obscenities from Liam), but here in wow we're all separated away from each other.
Yes, sometimes I think how unfair it is that my brother gets to kill titans and such in EVE with an Italian fleet commander (he's picked up a few choice Italian obscenities from Liam), but here in wow we're all separated away from each other.
All-blogger guild… *weep with longing* Although then you guys would all have to believe me when I say I'm not actually good at WoW. Also, I think Larisa's Adrenaline and Elleiras's Surreality are pretty much all-blogger guilds already.
All-blogger guild… *weep with longing* Although then you guys would all have to believe me when I say I'm not actually good at WoW. Also, I think Larisa's Adrenaline and Elleiras's Surreality are pretty much all-blogger guilds already.
All-blogger guild… *weep with longing* Although then you guys would all have to believe me when I say I'm not actually good at WoW. Also, I think Larisa's Adrenaline and Elleiras's Surreality are pretty much all-blogger guilds already.
All-blogger guild… *weep with longing* Although then you guys would all have to believe me when I say I'm not actually good at WoW. Also, I think Larisa's Adrenaline and Elleiras's Surreality are pretty much all-blogger guilds already.
All-blogger guild… *weep with longing*
Although then you guys would all have to believe me when I say I'm not actually good at WoW. Also, I think Larisa's Adrenaline and Elleiras's Surreality are pretty much all-blogger guilds already.
Gahhh wouldn't that be ridiculously fun? A blogger guild with the EUers and the NAers? Sigh. *longing*
My recent post A Little Give, A Little Take
Very well written, and probably a lot more vocal than my own post about the exact same 10man run. And yes, i have been pondering similar question, although i am not that good at putting them into words.
In the end, though, my reasoning was (and is) different. So i can just ask you to not give up on the peg. That is not quite the reason things do not fit.
I think the key point was written above – guilds change. Right now, the swing is out to areas you (and i) do not appreciate. But i am almost certain it will swing back, due to the core of good people. And then it will also be possible to find what you search for – the ability to be part of something, not just a random guy in a sissy robe hired in to keep people alive while they blunder through Icecrown.
L
I've been trying for a long long time to find a good balance, a guild which has its' skilled players, and good leadership, a fair loot system, and suchlike, but is fun and easy going. I'm basically guildless at the moment
I have been talking to a friend all night about this specific fact about WoW, people for some reason don't think it necessary to think of others before they act, and this causes no end of grief and guild drama sometimes. I'm tired of it, he's tired of it, I'm always very tempted to sod it all, transfer and make my own guild from scratch, only accepting people willing to think of others. Not necessarily help people whenever asked and donate everything they own to the guild bank, just a way to avoid all the fucking drama. Trouble is, I'm starting to doubt many people like this exist who'd be able to knock Putricide over (or be punched in the face by him for a while, or stop the raid falling over) and have FUN doing it and enjoy each other's company, not leaving anybody out. Wouldn't that be nice? Shame Gabriel was right, eh.
Very well written, and probably a lot more vocal than my own post about the exact same 10man run. And yes, i have been pondering similar question, although i am not that good at putting them into words.
In the end, though, my reasoning was (and is) different. So i can just ask you to not give up on the peg. That is not quite the reason things do not fit.
I think the key point was written above – guilds change. Right now, the swing is out to areas you (and i) do not appreciate. But i am almost certain it will swing back, due to the core of good people. And then it will also be possible to find what you search for – the ability to be part of something, not just a random guy in a sissy robe hired in to keep people alive while they blunder through Icecrown.
L
"mainly, I want to feel part of something."
I don't think that's a silly goal at all – in fact, the only thing I want out of this game (besides playing the game itself) is exactly that. I don't even care about the gear or the seeing the content (and I recognize this makes me something of a freak). What I want is to be part of a team of people who legitimately enjoy each other's company and are willing to give up a few hours a week to work toward a common goal.
You've outlined the difficulty there very well in this quote though:
"I’m happy to wipe on content, but I’m not happy to wipe because I don’t care enough about the people I’m raiding with [or] because people are lazy, uncommunicative or just don’t give a fuck about anyone else in the raid."
I don't have much to add to that, except Amen.
I will offer you a /pat, though, if I may be so forward. ^^
My recent post Let me Play my Game
It is possible to raid like that! Our casual guild fields multiple self-paced set 10 man teams that raid twice a week for 3.5 hours. It's so much fun! To go with the fun and sense of community, there's a sense of achievement from raiding this content properly (in 10 man gear) and overcoming the quirks of our group to make it happen
Our team is made up of ex-hardcore raiders and some friends without a raiding background who commit to show up or give notice if they can't make it, and to act in the best interest of the team (gear/gems/enchants etc).
A lot of us were burned out from the hardcore raiding scene and wanted to raid 10 mans for the lower admin cost – the side benefit is that you can have a 10 man team with no dickheads in it much more easily than you can have a 25 man team of the same caliber.
My recent post Civil War
Far over the sea, past the west of Spain is a land called Cokaygne.
There is no other land under heaven's domain of prosperity, of goodness, like it.
Though Paradise is delightful and beautiful, Cokaygne is a fairer sight.
http://nuweb.neu.edu/kkelly/med/cok.html
(the poem gets less and less work safe afterwards, fair warning)
Utopia is a pleasant concept, but not a reality. Guilds are composed of people, and groups of people never get along perfectly, even (or maybe especially) the friends and families guilds. To have that wondrous feeling of the group working together, of being part of a team, you will probably always have that moment of "please, please just shut up now!" It's the compromise of being a part of any group of people.
That said, if you don't emotional investment in the group, if they make you unhappy, keep looking! Finding a community is not easy, but the reward is worthy of the work.
Fly high Tam, feel the sun on your face.
Hm, the first impression I got from reading that post was that you're maybe overthinking things a bit. One should never think about quitting after a bad night, because it's normal to feel down then, regardless of how you actually feel about raiding in general. If after a good raid night you still think "well, that went well but I didn't really enjoy it all that much," then it's time to do something.
Though what Calli said is also true, even if your current guild is the best one you've been in so far, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the right one for you. From the outside it's hard to tell sometimes what's a serious grievance for you and what's nitpicking imperfections.
I don't think wanting to be part of something bigger is a strange thing to want from WoW at all. Do that many people actually join raiding guilds purely because they want to raid? I know I joined my guild of three years only because I wanted to get involved with the Horde circle of players two of my friends were part of. Since then one friend has long left the guild and another hardly ever plays, but I've stayed, through all kinds of drama, trials and tribulations, because I just feel that much part of Onslaught. Sometimes when things go bad I think about joining another raid guild, but in the end that always seems absurd because raiding was never the primary reason to be there anyway.
My recent post AFK in LFG